Challenging Geoff to a face-off on knowledge about Killington seems to be a losing proposition.
this weeks sign that the apocalypse is upon us
- Thread starter joegm
- Start date
joegm
New member
jamesdeluxe said:
it's not about killington,,, it's about moguls...and everytime he decides to post on the subject, he further proves he does not understand the issue even in the slightest... a " major expense " to push up some off set . tightly spaced piles of snow on the edge of a few trails a couple of time a week... and setting up a course of 3 lines or so on one trail and rebuilding it once every 4 weeks....that's unbelievable that anyone could make that statement.. in an earlier post, geoff said to just go ski conclusion's course... now he admits that the course is set up and maintained by the kms school which certainly implies that it is not in fact open to the public... keep going geoff, you keep proving how wrong you are
Geoff
New member
joegm":27jibjgg said:
Again....
Why would the resort do that? Counting depreciation, the hourly cost to operate grooming equipment is huge. Go ask a contractor to dig a foundation for you. That's using comparable equipment and takes a comparable amount of time. You're asking a resort to do that to a few trails a couple of times per week? Puh-lease. At Killington, we can't even get them to run the lifts when there is snow. They only build terrain parks and half pipes because there's huge market demand for them. They're not losing business because they don't have manufactured bump runs for John Q. Public. There are plenty of bump runs available at Killington for the masses that never see grooming equipment. If you don't like the shape of the moguls, maybe you should start a campaign to make everybody go back to 200cm straight skis. Good luck.
You started this whole thing out with the following post:
joegm":27jibjgg said:
I pointed out that Killington has always groomed Outer Limits whenever it gets bullet-proof. You somehow seem to think that trying to morph the thread into a discussion of manufactured bump runs absolves you from your original post where you sarcastically say that "the apocalypse is upon us" because OL got groomed. You have your facts wrong. The world hasn't ended. Killington is stuffed full of bumps all season. Skier's right on OL doesn't get groomed. If you look on the trail on any given day, 95% of the people are skiing the groomed 50% and when they don't groom it, the trail is virtually empty unless they've just blown snow on it, it's a powder day, or it's spring conditions.
I don't think this debate is ever going to be resolved without some input from somebody knowledgeable in ski area maintenance.
How much demand is there for mogul maintenance? If, as I suspect due the change in ski culture since the 1970's, very little, joegm is not going to get anywhere unless he can increase that demand or concentrate it at a particular area that might be responsive.
The corollary question, far less important IMHO, is whether mogul maintenance is more expensive/labor intensive than park or groomer maintenance.
How much demand is there for mogul maintenance? If, as I suspect due the change in ski culture since the 1970's, very little, joegm is not going to get anywhere unless he can increase that demand or concentrate it at a particular area that might be responsive.
The corollary question, far less important IMHO, is whether mogul maintenance is more expensive/labor intensive than park or groomer maintenance.
Another argument for joegm to give up on Killington and patronize MRG, where presumably the bumps would not "get ruined every day by the general public."
joegm
New member
Geoff You somehow seem to think that trying to morph the thread into a discussion of manufactured bump runs absolves you from your original post where you sarcastically say that [b said:
once again, geoff fails to get it and misreads the idea from the begining...the title of the post was to point out the ridiculousness of publically advertising via the web the fact that the world famous MOGUL RUN WAS GROOMED... to advertise that makes no sense at all from a marketing standpoint... FINE GEOFF FINE, THEY GROOMED IT...WHY ADVERTISE IT LIKE YOU ARE PROUD OF IT...when s/i puts that feature in the mag, it is to point out , often times, things that are absurd... it is absurd to proactively advertise a world famous mogul run as being groomed...
don't insult my intelligence with the nonsense about how cost prohibitive it would be to build some lines....not when they are more than willing to spend massive amoutns of money and time on building massive jumps and hits and a pipe that relatively speaking, very few people, actually ski regularly with any sort of real skill. the ones who do ski it ( kids and semi pro's ) who are skiing on non full adult rate discounted passes/tickets, or not even paying anything at all, get noticed because of the high profile nature of what it is... you blow the cost of building and maintaining some moguls way out of proportion....but a more careful and thoughful analysis would show that the amount of people who actually ski and ride those very expensive , high consequence hits, are not enough to dimiss, by relative comparison, the amount of regular people who would like to ski some nice even left right moguls.... would like to ski something outher than boring groomed out terrain, but cannot afford to risk the consequences of a turn gone wrong on a 50 table....WOULD LIKE TO SKI.... see geoff , would like to....doesn;t mean they are gonna go in to the office and demand it, it's that they would like to if it was there ....i know it's true because when i do happen to have occasion to ski moguls that are on medium pitched terrain and / or are in good shape spacing wise on steeper terrain, the amount of traffic in them goes through the roof...the ski area managers should be able to recognize that ....it's stunning that you can't, being a serious skier and all....
you continue to blame the shape of moguls on shaped skis or the lack of 200 cm long boards being skied....your wrong ....it's about skier ability...people today don't ski moguls because all the terrain they have to try and ski them are on natural terrain like fiddle and ol....you cannot learn to ski on terrain like that....the few that do, that don;t really have the ability to ski it well, turn the lines, by virtue of their incorrect turns not the shape of their skis, , into the crap that is there 90% of the time...if there was less steep , more evenly spaced terrain to learn on, the lines on things like fiddle and ol would improve dramatically, for the experts ....if all the terrain in the parks that is made/ built, was only the biggest, toughest hits available, are you actually going to say that the massive amounts of people who ski in there would be just as big???. if the only tree skiing that was available were lines like paradise at mad river, do you really think the demand for tree skiing would be as high as it is.....how can you not see this???? why are you so biased against trying to grow the sport of mogul skiing???
your attitude of deal with it or get over it , is incredibly arrogant... if killington all of a sudden stopped providing the type of terrain that you enjoy the most, whatever that is, you wouldn't accept the ridiculous response of just deal with it, without a fight....or maybe you would, who knows :roll:
the points of view on this are out there and the thread has generated a lot of traffic ...i'll let the readers decide who has the stronger argument...
tony, believe me , i have given up on K...the original post was just to point out what i pointed out above .....
i've told you before, i have property at loon....loon has actually provided this year, in relative terms, some of the more consistent mogul lines that i have skied...not enough in my opinion, but enough to give them the credit...their effort , while not the best, has certainly been better than other places.....
i don't torture myself at loon...my ski breakdown this year has been
loon- 17
stowe- 10
mrg-10
sunday river- 6
wildcat-6
cannon-2
burke-2
bretton woods-1
i think going more than half the time to other areas, often times 3 hours away from where i am located with property, is pretty good... i don't think most people who own a place at a ski hill would be traveling to other places as much as that, in general....and a good amount of the days i stayed at loon, it was pretty much a lock that it was junk everywhere in new england...i chase the snow / lines, if it is there to chase...
joegm
New member
im sorry, i know i said i was done but this is like shooting fish in a barrel:
from another site geoff wrote:
"The Fiddle quad has been there a pretty long time. Bear started out with a triple where the Bear Quad lives now and the only trails were Outer Limits and Wildfire. Wildfire was somewhat narrower than now and used to have a superb line on the upper part on skier's right and then a superb line down skier's left on the lower part. When they put in the Skye Peak quad, they widened the trail and it's never been the same.
Bear triple - Year of the Lake Placid Olympics. Installed for 1979-1980.
Fiddle - 1983. They also cut the trail and added Bear Claw
Skye Peak Quad - 1984. They cut Skyeburst and Dream Maker.
Bear converted to quad. 1984.
A few years later, they cut what is now Grizzly as a rec race course "
so a trail was cut with the idea of being a dedicated recreational race course trail... the trail had to have been maintained nightly....if geoff's assessment of how costly grooming is , it sounds like quite a bit of money was put into this recreational race course on a nightly basis.....
yet no outrage or no chest beating about that being a waste of money.....but plenty of chest beating about how expensive a public mogul course would be to maintain say once a month...
hmmmmmm....i see..... :roll:
from another site geoff wrote:
"The Fiddle quad has been there a pretty long time. Bear started out with a triple where the Bear Quad lives now and the only trails were Outer Limits and Wildfire. Wildfire was somewhat narrower than now and used to have a superb line on the upper part on skier's right and then a superb line down skier's left on the lower part. When they put in the Skye Peak quad, they widened the trail and it's never been the same.
Bear triple - Year of the Lake Placid Olympics. Installed for 1979-1980.
Fiddle - 1983. They also cut the trail and added Bear Claw
Skye Peak Quad - 1984. They cut Skyeburst and Dream Maker.
Bear converted to quad. 1984.
A few years later, they cut what is now Grizzly as a rec race course "
so a trail was cut with the idea of being a dedicated recreational race course trail... the trail had to have been maintained nightly....if geoff's assessment of how costly grooming is , it sounds like quite a bit of money was put into this recreational race course on a nightly basis.....
yet no outrage or no chest beating about that being a waste of money.....but plenty of chest beating about how expensive a public mogul course would be to maintain say once a month...
hmmmmmm....i see..... :roll:
Nice to hear about the 10 days each at Stowe and MRG. Makes sense given that I probably spent more time in the bumps on my 2 days at those areas that I can recall just about anywhere. How about posting a few of those reports so we don't keep getting the wrong impression?
I really don't know much about bump skiing. And I'm not very good. But what I did learn was on the rare occasion that they were blowing snow on a blue trail, or a big powder dump onto a black run. Once on a hut trip in Colorado, I learned something about bumps, skiing 4 miles downhill, in snowmobile swales.
I do think, if mountains would keep a blue run for bumps, it would really help people like me learn it. When your totally overmatched, it's hard to make progress.
Come to think of it...on some "black" trails in the poconos (not very steep, and probably blues by most standards) I found some bumps I could handle.
I do think, if mountains would keep a blue run for bumps, it would really help people like me learn it. When your totally overmatched, it's hard to make progress.
Come to think of it...on some "black" trails in the poconos (not very steep, and probably blues by most standards) I found some bumps I could handle.
Harvey44":3occgwma said:
Yep, that's what I do at Camelback... they have about five runs bumped up, like in the upper right of the pic. Lame for anyone with skillz, but they're just the right pitch for me to gain some confidence.
joegm
New member
Harvey44 said:
well harvey, you may not be geting the call for the us mogul team anytime soon, and you may not think you know much about bumps, but i'll tell you right now you know a hell of a lot more about them then some other closed minded, elitist people on this site who think they know about bumps and bump terrain...
really harvey, you really couldn't learn to ski bumps on devils fiddle at killington?..you must really suck :wink: i guess you will just have to " deal with it " :roll:
joegm
New member
well well well....the facts and hits just keep on coming don't they geoff?
from killingtonzone verbatim from chris nyberg- a very high ranking offical at killington ( im sure geoff can tell us exactly who he is )
From Alpine Zone's Ski Area Challenge:
Greg: What will Killington's mogul philosophy be this season, specifically on Outer Limits? ...
Chris Nyberg : Greg, as you maybe know, I have been intimately involved in the grooming world since the 70's, its been a huge part of my life and livelihood. My older daughter is a program manager for the US Snowboard Team and when she found out I would be heading up Killington and Pico, one of the first things she told me was don't mess with the freestyle scene at Killington, "it is legendary." Outer Limits is an awesome slope and needs to be maintained so that it shows off its attributes well in all conditions. That being said, we will get adequate snow on this slope and use our winch cats to move and place it where it will provide even and consistent depth. Occasionally, it will be necessary to winch this slope moving snow back up the slope to increase depth and to keep a quality experience. I believe Outer Limits should continue to be known as a legendary bump run and part of the brand position that 2knees was talking about. For the rest of Killington and Pico in regards to grooming, I have been talking with long time locals and will be spending time with them on hill learning what they like and dislike. There are diverse needs for surface conditions at Killington and Pico that range from beginner and teaching terrain, groomed cruisers, quality bump runs and race and race training surfaces. We are fortunate to have a state of the art fleet (the largest east of the Rockies) and low turnover of our skilled groomer operators which really helps us in our "snow farming" activities. We are increasing the hours that we will groom this season, with a focus on renovating and winching. These activities will improve our surface quality. Bear in mind that winching in many cases involves moving tons of snow back up the slope, a nightly combat with what gravity, skiers and boarders have been pushing down all day. Don't worry, we are not out to mow down the bumps, Killington has a heritage for great bump runs and great bump skiers and I appreciate their passion.
now what nyberg actually did this year and what he says in the above obviously needs to be examined very closely to see if they line up..
the point is there is an acknowledgment that mogul runs need to be maintained. here it is again in case geoff missed it.
"Outer Limits is an awesome slope and needs to be maintained so that it shows off its attributes well in all conditions."
and another nugget from nyberg:
"There are diverse needs for surface conditions at Killington and Pico that range from beginner and teaching terrain, groomed cruisers, quality bump runs and race and race training surfaces."
does devils fiddle qualify for that bump teaching terrain geoff?
"We are increasing the hours that we will groom this season, with a focus on renovating and winching"
geez that sounds awfully cost prohibitive :roll:
priceless :roll:
from killingtonzone verbatim from chris nyberg- a very high ranking offical at killington ( im sure geoff can tell us exactly who he is )
From Alpine Zone's Ski Area Challenge:
Greg: What will Killington's mogul philosophy be this season, specifically on Outer Limits? ...
Chris Nyberg : Greg, as you maybe know, I have been intimately involved in the grooming world since the 70's, its been a huge part of my life and livelihood. My older daughter is a program manager for the US Snowboard Team and when she found out I would be heading up Killington and Pico, one of the first things she told me was don't mess with the freestyle scene at Killington, "it is legendary." Outer Limits is an awesome slope and needs to be maintained so that it shows off its attributes well in all conditions. That being said, we will get adequate snow on this slope and use our winch cats to move and place it where it will provide even and consistent depth. Occasionally, it will be necessary to winch this slope moving snow back up the slope to increase depth and to keep a quality experience. I believe Outer Limits should continue to be known as a legendary bump run and part of the brand position that 2knees was talking about. For the rest of Killington and Pico in regards to grooming, I have been talking with long time locals and will be spending time with them on hill learning what they like and dislike. There are diverse needs for surface conditions at Killington and Pico that range from beginner and teaching terrain, groomed cruisers, quality bump runs and race and race training surfaces. We are fortunate to have a state of the art fleet (the largest east of the Rockies) and low turnover of our skilled groomer operators which really helps us in our "snow farming" activities. We are increasing the hours that we will groom this season, with a focus on renovating and winching. These activities will improve our surface quality. Bear in mind that winching in many cases involves moving tons of snow back up the slope, a nightly combat with what gravity, skiers and boarders have been pushing down all day. Don't worry, we are not out to mow down the bumps, Killington has a heritage for great bump runs and great bump skiers and I appreciate their passion.
now what nyberg actually did this year and what he says in the above obviously needs to be examined very closely to see if they line up..
the point is there is an acknowledgment that mogul runs need to be maintained. here it is again in case geoff missed it.
"Outer Limits is an awesome slope and needs to be maintained so that it shows off its attributes well in all conditions."
and another nugget from nyberg:
"There are diverse needs for surface conditions at Killington and Pico that range from beginner and teaching terrain, groomed cruisers, quality bump runs and race and race training surfaces."
does devils fiddle qualify for that bump teaching terrain geoff?
"We are increasing the hours that we will groom this season, with a focus on renovating and winching"
geez that sounds awfully cost prohibitive :roll:
priceless :roll:
Nyberg:
Geoff:
Sounds like Nyberg's talk wasn't quite followed through...
Geoff:
Sounds like Nyberg's talk wasn't quite followed through...
Geoff":5w5f59gi said:
Now it's getting interesting!
8)
Sharon
New member
the best thing about TGR is the gear swap
but as in any online forum, there are all kinds of perks about being part of any online community. There's the sharing of ski experiences, gear experiences, vacation experiences, backcountry experiences, etc etc.
There's also the sharing of when there are deals on lift tickets as well as other ski news. Not unlike this forum, only TGR seems to be full of little boys. Here, the people seem to be more mature and generally the conversation is much more interesting. Plus, this being a smaller forum, we don't have to plow through pages and pages per thread...well, except this one :lol: . On TGR everyone has something to say and there are a lot of participants...it gets very tedious and time consuming. Smaller forums are better.
I was only razzing Skidog in the western forum today because he's so full of himself and sometimes busts on others. I was just having fun. He's really a great guy and I really enjoyed skiing with him. He exudes the love of the sport...just like the rest of us. He's a bit too happy with himself for becoming a Utard
Can't blame him for that.