Can Snowmaking Compensate for Climate Change?

[MarzNC]

That's the way Sun Valley does it. I got a tour of their snowmaking facility in 2010 with NASJA. Mid-season snowmaking topping off groomed runs has 8-10% water content and is called "gunpowder" by the locals. I observed similar snowmaking in action at Beaver Creek in 2015(?), deliberately skied through it once to verify that it was not heavy at all.

Remember, this thread is about Eastern molehills. The snowmaking situation at SV and BC is completely different.
EDIT: post was moved

I have read that East Coast resorts need to let machine-made snow 'cure' or drain' for 24 hours if possible, so that it does not transition directly to ice.

I am not sure if this happens for early openings or Holiday recovery operations. I have seen Killington slather wet snow on trails after rain events to try to create a skiable surface.

That's true mostly during early season. Pretty sure curing also happens in the midwest, but probably only during early season before a base has been built up. In the southeast, snow whales may be created later on when a warm spell has essentially melted off most, if not all, of the base for a given trail that has a lot of sun exposure. In the southeast, there are seasons when that happens more than once. Especially if there is any rain along with warm temps.

The piles under snowguns set up to blow in one place for a day or three are called "snow whales." Can be 10-15 ft high. Anyone who tries to ski over a fresh one at speed may not be happy when their skis come to a dead stop because the snow is so sticky. I've watched people double-eject on a snow whale in the middle of the main blue groomer at Massanutten. Have even seen a ski patroller lose it when not going that fast.

The steepest snow whales I've skied in the southeast were at Timberline in WV on one of the double-blacks. They had been left a bit longer than necessary on purpose at the request of PSIA trainers for 2-day clinics for Level II ski and snowboard instructors. One of the trainers was an Examiner who worked at Massanutten. One of the instructors taking a clinic was someone I knew from EpicSki.

Here are examples from early December 2014 in the northeast. Not molehills though.

Snow whales at Loon in NH, December 2, 2014

Snow whales at Sunday River in Maine, December 5, 2014

Fun snow whales at Wildcat in NH, December 4, 2014
After the cat track, this narrow trail took a turn and became steep enough that I was having to concentrate. Was an adventurous advanced intermediate back then. I decided to give it a try since I was following someone who seemed to know exactly where he was going. He turned out to be a retired local who had skied Wildcat for decades. Had a good time skiing with him for the next hour or so. In this case, skiing on the whales was fun because the top few inches of new snow was relatively dry.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I would be interested in finding more information about Italy's Dolomite snowmaking systems. It appears that the resorts start making snow in November to have 100% of their snowmaking runs open by the holidays, regardless of natural snowfall.

That would allow them to blow a lot of high water content snow to build a base, then dial it down to 8-10% like Sun Valley for more pleasant surfaces before the holiday hordes arrive. I would assume with high confidence that the Dolomites are usually very low humidity and as favorable an environment for snowmaking as Sun Valley.

The piles under snowguns set up to blow in one place for a day or three are called "snow whales." Can be 10-15 ft high. Anyone who tries to ski over a fresh one at speed may not be happy when their skis come to a dead stop because the snow is so sticky.

Yes I see snow whales in SoCal occasionally, and results are similar if you try to ski over one of them. That why I tried one that day at Beaver Creek (pic below) and it was very different.

 

[Skieric]

After having skied in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, NY, WV, VT, Ontario and Quebec on the east of the continent, I can attest that the dry snow from snowmaking guns really only appears in the areas that can place an adequate base in the early season and are focusing on surface conditions or when the temps are so cold that the guns can only make very dry snow (Quebec in December). Therefore, I have only had nice dry snowmaking snow in Ontario and Quebec. Further south gets too much rain that they are always trying to rebuild the base. Light snow also doesnt stick to ice, therefore heavy wet snow is better to try to fix the conditions after the rain. The climate would also be far more conducive to making dry snow in the mid continental (UT, CO, WY, AB, etc) and the alps.

 

[jasoncapecod]

That would allow them to blow a lot of high water content snow to build a base, then dial it down to 8-10% like Sun Valley for more pleasant surfaces before the holiday hordes arrive. I would assume with high confidence that the Dolomites are usually very low humidity and as favorable an environment for snowmaking as Sun Valley.

Yes I see snow whales in SoCal occasionally, and results are similar if you try to ski over one of them. That why I tried one that day at Beaver Creek (pic below) and it was very different.

Hundreds of these cannons dot the landscape in the Dolomites. What’s crazy is there isn’t a snowmaking pond or pipes in sight.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Hundreds of these cannons dot the landscape in the Dolomites. What’s crazy is there isn’t a snowmaking pond or piles in sight.

1,168 km/1,045 miles of slopes covered by 4,700 cannons and 330 snow cats operated by 3,000 employees according to London-based Collett's travel agency.

Snow making in the Dolomites | Dolomiti Superski | Collett's

Have you ever wondered how the slopes of the Italian Dolomites are being kept pristine? Learn more about snow making in the Dolomites.

www.colletts.co.uk

I've expressed my general antipathy toward industrial skiing; however, I'd love to take in that particular experience (during a nonpeak period of course). Between the comprehensive snowmaking, predominantly high-speed lifts, and allegedly excellent signage, Dolomiti Superski must be a favorite of Brits as those are their three major pain points.

I've mentioned before that people on the German forums have posted more than once that they don't want to ski on fresh, natural snow in the Dolomites. They want the artificial stuff and anything less than perfectly groomed is not acceptable.

 

[Skieric]

Hundreds of these cannons dot the landscape in the Dolomites. What’s crazy is there isn’t a snowmaking pond or pipes in sight.

View attachment 47695

My understanding is the majority of the alps see your round precipitation with significant summer rainfall. Is there nearby natural lakes, etc that they pump from?

 

[MarzNC]

Further south gets too much rain that they are always trying to rebuild the base.

My impression from the last twenty years is that south of PA and Washington DC, the issue isn't rain as much as warm spells with temps in the 40s at night and into the 50s during the day. In recent years, a few days in 60s have happened mid-season. Completely starting over on non-core trails in NC, TN, VA was happening 15-20 years ago too. WV gets more natural snow and cold temps during the winter so rarely ends up with bare ground after December. The hope is to be 100% open by Christmas and do what it takes to be 100% for Pres. Day weekend. Note that schools in the southeast do not have a winter break that week, as is common in the northeast. Snowmaking may continue until the very last week that the lift runs in March, even if only for a short time window.

Here's an example of warm temps at Massanutten for January 2024. MLK Day was Jan. 15 so it felt like winter for the holiday weekend. In fact, it snowed a bit. Fair to say there was a lot of melting by late January.

Massanutten snowmaking on MLK weekend around 5:30pm, Saturday, January 14, 2024

Snowguns were blowing wet snow to build base

In recent years some of the ski hills in the southeast have made major investments in snowmaking infrastructure and/or securing more water access in order to allow non-stop snowmaking for 72 hours or more. Timberline in WV has been completely transformed since new owners who learned snowmaking in Indiana took over. Massanutten can have 100+ snowguns firing full blast non-stop for a few days, partially because they built a 2-mile pipeline from the valley. Most of the newer equipment are automated fan guns, so they all go on at about the same time. Fun to watch! The base on the core trails was much deeper in the last few years than when my daughter was learning to ski twenty years ago. There was a time when the long green could be open with barely a foot of base. Now that trail is usually covered with 3+ feet of snow by the time it opens for the season, at least in a narrow strip on the shady side.

For the record, I live in central NC. Moved from New York City decades ago. First skied in NC in the 1980s but didn't start skiing more than a few days a season until 2005. Still ski 10-20 days in the southeast and mid-Atlantic, mostly in January. Started getting curious about snowmaking technology and operations about ten years ago. The regional differences were striking as I skied more in the Rockies and northeast during early season after 2012. Have learned a lot from the videos made for the annual I AM A SNOWMAKER contest.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Here's an example of warm temps at Massanutten for January 2024.

More eastern humidity effect. I can only occasionally see a pattern of daytime highs and nighttime lows in that red line.

At Big Bear average Dec-Feb temps are high 46 low 24. That's in town at 6,800 feet; you can probably knock 2-3 degrees off those numbers mid-mountain. I rarely see snow machines on past 10AM, but usually they are on sometime at night. In terms of variation I'm sure that there are many more 24 hour periods where they can't make any snow than where they can make it 24/7.

The Nov temp range is 53/28. Big Bear would like to get open for Thanksgiving but about 30% of the time they don't and another 40% or so it's on just one top-to-bottom run on each mountain.

 

[ChrisC]

That would allow them to blow a lot of high water content snow to build a base, then dial it down to 8-10% like Sun Valley for more pleasant surfaces before the holiday hordes arrive. I would assume with high confidence that the Dolomites are usually very low humidity and as favorable an environment for snowmaking as Sun Valley.

A rough comparison of the scale of the snowmaking systems. Again, AI has potential accuracy issues.

Snowmaking & Snowfall Comparison of Major Alpine Domains​

Resort / Domain	Country	Avg. Snowfall (upper mt.)	Snowmaking Coverage	Snow Cannons	Snowcats	Altitude Range	Notes
Dolomiti Superski	Italy	~250–400 cm (8–13 ft)	97% of 1,200 km	~4,700	~330	1,200–3,200 m	Largest snowmaking system in the world; essential due to modest snowfall.
Ski Arlberg	Austria	~700–1,000 cm (23–33 ft)	~75% of 300 km	~1,000	~80	1,300–2,800 m	Deep natural snowpack, backed by strong snowmaking.
SkiWelt Wilder Kaiser – Brixental	Austria	~400–500 cm (13–16 ft)	~90% of 288 km	~1,700	~60+	620–1,957 m	Low altitude but nearly full coverage snowmaking.
Saalbach–Hinterglemm–Leogang–Fieberbrunn	Austria	~450–550 cm (15–18 ft)	~90% of 270 km	~1,000+	~60+	840–2,096 m	Heavy snowmaking ensures reliability across the Ski Circus.
Kitzbühel	Austria	~400–500 cm (13–16 ft)	~80–85% of 230 km	~1,000	~55+	760–2,000 m	Famous for the Hahnenkamm; snowmaking offsets low altitude.
Les 3 Vallées	France	~500–650 cm (16–21 ft)	~50–55% of 600 km	~2,200	~70–100	1,300–3,230 m	High, vast domain; natural snow + altitude reduce reliance.
Val d’Isère / Tignes (Espace Killy)	France	~550–800 cm (18–26 ft)	~60% of 300 km	~900+	~70+	1,550–3,456 m	Glaciers (Grande Motte, Pissaillas) = long season Nov–May.
Verbier / 4 Vallées	Switzerland	~450–550 cm (15–18 ft)	~35–40% of 400 km	~1,000+	~60+	1,500–3,330 m	High alpine terrain; natural snow reliability dominates.
Zermatt – Matterhorn Glacier Paradise	Switzerland	~400–500 cm (13–16 ft)	~75% of 360 km	~1,200	~70–80	1,620–3,883 m	Europe’s highest lift; glacier skiing nearly year-round.

Snowmaking & Snowfall Comparison – North America

Resort / Domain	Avg. Snowfall (upper mt.)	Snowmaking Coverage	Snow Guns	Snowcats	Altitude Range	Notes
Killington (Vermont, USA)	~600 cm (20 ft)	95% of 155 km	~1,700+	~50	400–1,290 m	Longest US season, East Coast giant.
Sunday River (Maine, USA)	~430 cm (14 ft)	95% of 135 km	~2,000	~40+	240–957 m	Ultra-dense snowmaking system.
Okemo (Vermont, USA)	~350 cm (11 ft)	98% of 120 km	~1,500	~40	343–1,155 m	Near-complete coverage; very consistent.
Snowshoe (West Virginia, USA)	~400 cm (13 ft)	100% of 65 km	~1,500	~25	1,450–1,500 m	Fully covered despite modest snowfall.
Park City / Canyons (Utah, USA)	~950 cm (31 ft)	~20–25% of 330+ km	~500+	~70+	2,100–3,050 m	Largest US resort; relies mostly on natural snow.
Vail (Colorado, USA)	~900 cm (30 ft)	~20–25% of 234 km	~350+	~40+	2,475–3,530 m	Snowmaking covers key arteries; bowls rely on natural snow.
Keystone (Colorado, USA)	~600 cm (20 ft)	~60% of 135 km	~700+	~30+	2,828–3,782 m	Strong snowmaking → one of Colorado’s earliest openers.
Sun Valley (Idaho, USA)	~550 cm (18 ft)	~80% of 100 km	~600+	~20+	1,750–2,780 m	Legendary grooming, heavy reliance on snowmaking.
Mammoth Mountain (California, USA)	~1,050 cm (35 ft)	~25–30% of 150 km	~300+	~40+	2,424–3,369 m	Huge natural snowfall; snowmaking mainly for bases.

 

[ChrisC]

My understanding is the majority of the alps see your round precipitation with significant summer rainfall. Is there nearby natural lakes, etc that they pump from?

I don't really notice snowmaking reservoirs during the winter months because they are often snow-covered unless there is some man-made circulation.

Snowmaking Reservoirs in the Dolomites​

Alta Badia​

• Lech de Costamoi (above Colfosco) – main reservoir for the Sella Ronda connection.
• Lech de Sompunt (near Badia/La Villa) – supplies central slopes.

Val Gardena / Gröden​

• Monte Pana Reservoir – supports St. Cristina and Sella Ronda link.
• Plan de Gralba Reservoir (below Passo Sella) – crucial for keeping the Sella circuit open.

Val di Fassa​

• Pozza di Fassa Reservoir – feeds Buffaure–Catinaccio slopes.
• Canazei Reservoirs near Belvedere–Pecol for high-traffic Sella Ronda segments.

Kronplatz / Plan de Corones​

• Artificial Lake at the Summit Plateau (2,275 m) – stores water for nearly the whole dome-shaped ski area.

Cortina d’Ampezzo​

• Son dei Prade Reservoir (Faloria–Tofana link).
• Artificial lakes at Col Druscié and Pomedes – supply World Cup racing slopes.

Civetta / Arabba​

• Fedaia Reservoir (Marmolada) is a natural lake but partially used for snowmaking water near Passo Fedaia.
• Artificial lakes above Alleghe supply Civetta’s lower slopes.

 

[ChrisC]

After having skied in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, NY, WV, VT, Ontario and Quebec on the east of the continent, I can attest that the dry snow from snowmaking guns really only appears in the areas that can place an adequate base in the early season and are focusing on surface conditions or when the temps are so cold that the guns can only make very dry snow (Quebec in December). Therefore, I have only had nice dry snowmaking snow in Ontario and Quebec. Further south gets too much rain that they are always trying to rebuild the base. Light snow also doesnt stick to ice, therefore heavy wet snow is better to try to fix the conditions after the rain. The climate would also be far more conducive to making dry snow in the mid continental (UT, CO, WY, AB, etc) and the alps.

I have only seen light, powdery snow made at the major snowmaking resorts such as Killington, Okemo, and Sunday River. Okemo is especially adept at it since its terrain is extraordinarily flat compared to most, and its upper surfaces do not get skied off as quickly (i.e. lots of skidded turns at Killington on steeper trails). Bretton Woods is very similar to Okemo - green, blue, and black trail designations are relatively meaningless. However, these areas will ski better after a thaw/washout.

Other prominent New England resorts have large systems, but they are mainly used to establish a base and open trails once a year, and possibly for resurfacing major runs after a thaw. I thought these resorts included: Sugarloaf, Stowe, Sugarbush, Jay, Cannon, Wildcat, etc.

 

[ChrisC]

My home mountain in northern VA, Massanutten, exists because of 100% snowmaking from the start back in the early 1970s. My experience skiing there dates from 2005, just before major investments were made to improve snowmaking infrastructure and to replace the original lifts. What current snowguns can put out in the 2020s is quite different from snowguns from earlier decades.

Why do you prefer Massanutten, Virginia versus the North Carolina mountains near Banner Elk such as Beech and Sugar?

I thought the North Carolina mountains have a 'more mountain' aesthetic, have a 1,000 ft vertical (Beech almost at 830 ft) and are closer to most NC metro areas allowing for even day tripping from Charlotte or Greensboro. Also, they are significantly higher in elevation allowing for November snowmaking and skiing some years. I have even seen Cataloochee open in late October due to this elevation factor:

Cataloochee has opened in October on at least a couple of occasions. According to sources:​

• In the 2008–2009 season, Cataloochee opened October 28, 2008. Cataloochee Ski Area+1
• Also in the 2012–2013 season, it opened October 31, 2012. Cataloochee Ski Area

North Carolina Resorts​

Sugar Mountain, NC​

• Base elevation: ~4,100 ft (1,250 m)
• Summit elevation: ~5,300 ft (1,615 m)
• Vertical drop: ~1,200 ft (370 m)
• Notes: Tallest ski area in North Carolina — known for having the longest runs and strongest snowmaking in the state.

Beech Mountain, NC​

• Base elevation: ~4,675 ft (1,425 m)
• Summit elevation: ~5,506 ft (1,678 m)
• Vertical drop: ~830 ft (253 m)
• Notes: The highest ski area east of the Mississippi River by summit elevation.

---

Virginia Resort​

Massanutten, VA​

• Base elevation: ~1,750 ft (533 m)
• Summit elevation: ~2,925 ft (892 m)
• Vertical drop: ~1,175 ft (358 m)
• Notes: Lower elevation than NC resorts, but strong snowmaking makes it reliable for Mid-Atlantic skiing.

 

[MarzNC]

A rough comparison of the scale of the snowmaking systems. Again, AI has potential accuracy issues.


Snowmaking & Snowfall Comparison – North America

Resort / Domain	Avg. Snowfall (upper mt.)	Snowmaking Coverage	Snow Guns	Snowcats	Altitude Range	Notes
Killington (Vermont, USA)	~600 cm (20 ft)	95% of 155 km	~1,700+	~50	400–1,290 m	Longest US season, East Coast giant.
Sunday River (Maine, USA)	~430 cm (14 ft)	95% of 135 km	~2,000	~40+	240–957 m	Ultra-dense snowmaking system.
Okemo (Vermont, USA)	~350 cm (11 ft)	98% of 120 km	~1,500	~40	343–1,155 m	Near-complete coverage; very consistent.
Snowshoe (West Virginia, USA)	~400 cm (13 ft)	100% of 65 km	~1,500	~25	1,450–1,500 m	Fully covered despite modest snowfall.
Park City / Canyons (Utah, USA)	~950 cm (31 ft)	~20–25% of 330+ km	~500+	~70+	2,100–3,050 m	Largest US resort; relies mostly on natural snow.
Vail (Colorado, USA)	~900 cm (30 ft)	~20–25% of 234 km	~350+	~40+	2,475–3,530 m	Snowmaking covers key arteries; bowls rely on natural snow.
Keystone (Colorado, USA)	~600 cm (20 ft)	~60% of 135 km	~700+	~30+	2,828–3,782 m	Strong snowmaking → one of Colorado’s earliest openers.
Sun Valley (Idaho, USA)	~550 cm (18 ft)	~80% of 100 km	~600+	~20+	1,750–2,780 m	Legendary grooming, heavy reliance on snowmaking.
Mammoth Mountain (California, USA)	~1,050 cm (35 ft)	~25–30% of 150 km	~300+	~40+	2,424–3,369 m	Huge natural snowfall; snowmaking mainly for bases.

Not quite sure how to interpret the Snowmaking Coverage stats for the American resorts.

For instance, OnTheSnow for Killington shows 1526 skiable acres and 600 acres with snowmaking. Presumably that mean the "90% of 155 km" means groomed trails only. Similar situation for Sunday River.

Although there are a few gladed areas at Snowshoe, saying it has 100% snowmaking coverage is not that far off.

 

[MarzNC]

Why do you prefer Massanutten, Virginia versus the North Carolina mountains near Banner Elk such as Beech and Sugar?

I thought the North Carolina mountains have a 'more mountain' aesthetic, have a 1,000 ft vertical (Beech almost at 830 ft) and are closer to most NC metro areas allowing for even day tripping from Charlotte or Greensboro. Also, they are significantly higher in elevation allowing for November snowmaking and skiing some years. I have even seen Cataloochee open in late October due to this elevation factor:

You are correct that people who live in Charlotte or Winston-Salem or Greensboro mostly ski Beech or Sugar.

As for why I like Massanutten, remember that you asked . . . I can talk about Massanutten for hours.

Have you spent much time in the Shenandoah Mountains? The center of the Shenandoah National Park is 20 minutes from Massanutten. NC mountains are higher but they are also a lot farther south. Plus every so often the weather pattern means northern VA gets a southeast flow that doesn't impact the NC/TN mountains.

For me, choosing Mnut as a home mountain was a combination of logistics in terms of driving and lodging options. I tried skiing with my daughter at other southeast hills after she was an intermediate (ages 6-8) for a couple seasons before settling on getting season passes for Mnut.

I live near Raleigh, an hour east of Greensboro. To drive to the NC mountains requires passing by the Triad (High Point, Greensboro, Winston-Salem) and used to mean a fair amount of driving on 2-lane highway once near the mountains. While in theory the drive can be 2.5-3.0 hours, the timing has to be just right. Was hard to avoid traffic with a kid in school. To get to Massanutten, it's a straight shot north mostly on US29, which became a 4-lane highway by the 1980s.

Cat is fun but is only 50 acres. The nearest lodging is down a narrow mountain road. It's about 5 hours drive from Raleigh to Cat. Takes less time to drive there from Atlanta. I didn't ski Cat until my daughter was in college at UNC Asheville. By then Cat was on the Indy Pass. Good for a day trip to ski with friends, but not for a long weekend.

As for Beech and Sugar, I gave them a try with my daughter. We met and skied with friendly folks from SkiSoutheast. Bottom line is that Banner Elk is too close to FL, GA, SC, TN, and the rest of NC to be much fun on weekends. The lifts back then were all very slow. Even after Beech upgraded their lifts, they aren't that reliable for some reason. Sugar finally installed a quad from the base to the summit in 2015. The old double took 15 minutes to the top, if you were lucky. In comparison, the old fixed-grip quad at Massanutten took 7 minutes and loaded mid-mountain so there was never a lift line even on weekends.

Cat and Sugar are always the first to open. Usually means one top-to-bottom trail, but not much more than that.

The question I was asked on SkiSoutheast was why I didn't choose Wintergreen as a home mountain. Getting there takes about 30 minutes less from Raleigh. But requires more mountain driving on 2-lane road because Wintergreen is an upside-down resort, with the buildings at the top of the ridge. Another factor is that the advanced pod is not lit for night skiing. But the kicker was that it was impossible to get a season pass that included Saturdays as someone who didn't own property there.

Massanutten had been a sleeper mountain for decades because there was limited terrain on the upper mountain. It began ski operations in the early 1970s. It was a 4-season resort from the start. They make money during the summer months. After the indoor/outdoor water park was built, they started doing major capital projects for snowsports. Massanutten has had senior managers for ski operations who were/are local. Their tenure is measured in decades. The ski school is very strong, with far more Level 3 instructors than one might expect. That means new instructors get very good training. It was a founding partner for the Indy Pass.

By the late 1970s, Massanutten had become a timeshare resort. We bought at Mnut when my daughter was 3. Our ski trips always involved staying overnight. I retired early and we only had one kid, which simplified taking trips. We could bring friends to Mnut who weren't that into skiing. The snow tubing, indoor water park, and/or ice skating were a draw for them. I continue to spend holiday weekends skiing at Mnut with my friends' kids.

As for terrain, Massanutten has 1100' total vert, with 800' off the upper mountain lift alone, 100% snowmaking coverage, and 100% lit for night skiing. It probably took a decade of planning and construction but for the 50th anniversary Mnut could celebrate the opening of a high-speed detachable quad and new upper mountain trails. The Peak lift loads mid-mountain and goes to the summit. What was a 7-min ride is now 4 minutes. Trails were cut that had been planned back in the 1970s but weren't practical because the snowmaking infrastructure wouldn't even support blowing the two upper mountain trails at the same time. The improvements for snowmaking were impressive. Now there are six ways down for an advanced skier, and for half of those there are very few intermediates to dodge even on weekends. The bumps under the liftline require skills to ski well. Total skiable acres increased to 83.

Bottom line is that Massanutten has been a great fit for me, family, and friends. With the new trails and high-speed lift, it's even more fun midweek these days. Bonus is that I'll be over the age cut off to get a low cost season pass soon.

 

[ChrisC]

Not quite sure how to interpret the Snowmaking Coverage stats for the American resorts.

For instance, OnTheSnow for Killington shows 1526 skiable acres and 600 acres with snowmaking. Presumably that mean the "90% of 155 km" means groomed trails only. Similar situation for Sunday River.

Although there are a few gladed areas at Snowshoe, saying it has 100% snowmaking coverage is not that far off.

I was curious about European Resorts first, and they primarily measure km (or miles) of pistes versus acres or square meters.

Eastern Resorts should primarily measure snowmaking in distance - miles/feet - versus acres because even wide runs basically only have snowmaking on one side and only open partially (i.e., Snowdance at Mt. Snow, Wanderer at Stratton, Outer Limits, Superstar or Ovation at Killington, etc.), and glades are hard to measure. Trail numbers are meaningless since they are hyper-inflated with Upper, Middle, and Lower for some runs. Often, I saw snow reports for Eastern resorts report miles of skiing open, and use this metric as the most important of % open or who has the most open.

I find OnTheSnow inaccurate, especially regarding snowfall. However, the site has infected all of the Gen AI bots (ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity, etc.). The bots are too lazy to drill into BestSnow and state so - you might find more numbers if you look.

Killington Elevation & Mountain Stats - Largest Ski Resort In the East

The Killington elevation stats page provides information about the multiple mountain peaks, winter stats, terrain park features and summer stats.

www.killington.com

FACTS & FLAKES​

To complement 250 inches of natural snowfall each winter, our snowmaking system covers 600 of our skiable acres. Under ideal conditions, Killington’s snowmaking system delivers 9 million gallons of water per day to more than 250 snow guns, covering 45 acres with 12 inches of fresh snow every 24 hours. Our snowmaking system features 88 miles of pipe and 2,100 snow guns (including more than 1000 Low Energy guns). Killington's 17 snowcats groom more than 40 miles of terrain on a nightly basis.


One note: 88 miles of pipe does not necessarily correspond to miles of trail coverage since pipes extend to reservoirs, etc.

 

[ChrisC]

Cat is fun but is only 50 acres

Cataloochee is relatively small, even by southern ski resort standards. Maybe three ways down?

As for Beech and Sugar, I gave them a try with my daughter. We met and skied with friendly folks from SkiSoutheast. Bottom line is that Banner Elk is too close to FL, GA, SC, TN, and the rest of NC to be much fun on weekends. The lifts back then were all very slow. Even after Beech upgraded their lifts, they aren't that reliable for some reason. Sugar finally installed a quad from the base to the summit in 2015. The old double took 15 minutes to the top, if you were lucky.

They are busy on the weekends! I was unsure if I was just there during prime season in February, but I am certain that any decent weather weekend from December to January 1st Holidays to March 1st is a mob scene.

Beech was only running its HS Quad and backside Quad when I was there; its two other summit doubles were closed for no reason on a Saturday. Funny, now its HS lift is gone, replaced by two slow fixed Quads.

The question I was asked on SkiSoutheast was why I didn't choose Wintergreen as a home mountain. Getting there takes about 30 minutes less from Raleigh. But requires more mountain driving on 2-lane road because Wintergreen is an upside-down resort, with the buildings at the top of the ridge. Another factor is that the advanced pod is not lit for night skiing. But the kicker was that it was impossible to get a season pass that included Saturdays as someone who didn't own property there.

Outside of Wintergreen's Highlands area, the rest of the resort is rather uninspiring: the Blue Ridge Express beginner area and a very short, bland Acorn area.

Massanutten has two interesting, significant pods served by Lifts 5 and 6.

Trails were cut that had been planned back in the 1970s but weren't practical because the snowmaking infrastructure wouldn't even support blowing the two upper mountain trails at the same time. The improvements for snowmaking were impressive. Now there are six ways down for an advanced skier, and for half of those there are very few intermediates to dodge even on weekends.

Interesting snowmaking has advanced significantly at Massanutten and Timberline.

Vail seems to have neutered mountains like Hunter and Okemo (also winter water flow issues) and has significantly regressed.
Even Killington did not match its performance in the 1980s and 90s, and it gave up the Devil's Fiddle, Ovation, Northeast Passage slopes, and the top of Ram's Head.

 

[MarzNC]

Beech was only running its HS Quad and backside Quad when I was there; its two other summit doubles were closed for no reason on a Saturday. Funny, now its HS lift is gone, replaced by two slow fixed Quads.

Presumably a decision based on money. The problem lately if that those quads are not holding up. I read complaints on the SkiSoutheast Discord.

Outside of Wintergreen's Highlands area, the rest of the resort is rather uninspiring: the Blue Ridge Express beginner area and a very short, bland Acorn area.

The bigger issue as a parent taking a couple of tweens to Wintergreen was that getting between Highlands and the Acorn pod takes quite a while on a weekend when lift lines are long. My daughter's friend wasn't good enough to ski the blacks. So they ended up mostly riding Blue Ridge. Meant only the long green or wandering the terrain park.

Lately the issue for Wintergreen is that they don't have enough water to blow non-stop for 2-3 days. The lake is big but also supplies all the potable water for the entire resort so can't draw beyond a certain point. It used to be that Wintergreen could do more snowmaking than Massanutten in short windows because they had more automated snowguns. Made a big difference when Massanutten built a 2-mile pipeline from the valley to supply water for snowmaking and watering the mountain golf course. Both have had video feeds for a while thanks to SkiSoutheast so it's easy to see what happening . . . or not . . . when it's cold and dry enough for snowmaking.

Highlands hasn't been opening 100% much in recent years. Since it's on Indy, I went one morning when staying a full week at Massanutten since it's only an hour away. One of the trails at Highlands was clearly ready to go, but it was closed. Got the feeling that they were saving it for the weekend. PGRI gained full ownership in 2021 and was the operator starting in 2015. May take a few more years before needed improvements happen.

 

[Tony Crocker]

To drive to the NC mountains requires passing by the Triad (High Point, Greensboro, Winston-Salem)

Travel east-west in NC is tedious, sort of like in upper New England. One of my 1980's&90's ski friends was an avid windsurfer and relocated to Charlotte, thought he would be scoring at Cape Hatteras. Well, that drive is at least as long as L.A. to Tahoe. He took a week vacation there his first year, never heard of him going back and was done with windsurfing as his major hobby within a few years. He lived close to a large lake but it rarely had wind.

I note that Massanutten has the same vertical as Beech, so if the drive is shorter and it's less crowded MarzNC's decision looks obvious. I've heard horror stories before about the weekend areas driveable from Atlanta metro. While some Southeast have similar verticals to Big Bear/Mt. High, they have much lower trail counts/skiable acreage, and FWIW I don't set foot on Big Bear/Mt. High when they are less than half open due to skier density.

I was curious about European Resorts first, and they primarily measure km (or miles) of pistes versus acres or square meters.

Overall I think trail mileage is poor metric of ski area scale as it conspicuously favors flatter resorts. But it's absolutely the right metric for scale of snowmaking coverage. How did you translate North American acreage into trail mileage?

I find OnTheSnow inaccurate, especially regarding snowfall.

SnoCountry is the automated source for all consolidator sites. To some extent that includes OpenSnow, and they so state when that is true for them.

Mammoth....snowmaking mainly for bases.

Mammoth snowmaking is about 500 acres, around 15% of acreage. It covers the majority of groomer trails top to bottom of chairs serving Main Lodge, Stump, Canyon and Eagle Lodge. Snowmaking is also done on Solitude to open chair 5, Saddle Bowl and Face of 3, plus Cornice from the top. The objective in a bad early season (as I observed in Dec. 2011) is to build out a skeletal network to open as many chairs as possible once the core Main Lodge/Stump sector is done.

 

[MarzNC]

Mammoth snowmaking is about 500 acres, around 15% of acreage. It covers the majority of groomer trails top to bottom of chairs serving Main Lodge, Stump, Canyon and Eagle Lodge. Snowmaking is also done on Solitude to open chair 5, Saddle Bowl and Face of 3, plus Cornice from the top. The objective in a bad early season (as I observed in Dec. 2011) is to build out a skeletal network to open as many chairs as possible once the core Main Lodge/Stump sector is done.

Does Mammoth continue snowmaking after late December? Any idea if the snowmaking staff transition to other jobs at Mammoth? Or if any come from Australia or New Zealand?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Does Mammoth continue snowmaking after late December?

I saw snowmaking in action in January 2007 and presume that was the case in 2012 as well. Anecdotally I heard that 2012 was more robust for snowmaking than 2014 and 2015 because the water supply decreased during the 4 year sharp drought.

If there's a big dump in December I'm fairly sure there will be no more snowmaking.

Any idea if the snowmaking staff transition to other jobs at Mammoth?

That is highly likely IMHO. Lift staffing is very flexible in early/late season based upon perceived demand. Mammoth anticipates demand by monitoring lodging bookings.