How will ski areas fare with 5.00/gallon gas

[jasoncapecod]

if you can't beat'em join'em.. :wink:

 

[Geoff]

if you can't beat'em join'em.. :wink:

You ever play musical chairs? You don't want to be holding a futures contract when the music stops.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

While dropping off my son at daycare this morning, a mother pulled up behind me in a Lincoln Navigator. Ever see one of these monsters? It was more than two times as big as my Honda. There's no way this tank gets more than 10 mpg. And she uses it, I'm positive, to do nothing more than tool around in town, take kids to soccer practice, go to the mall, etc.

Fighting back the urge to self-righteously yell at her -- "WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED SUCH A BIG CAR?!?! DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THIS THING POLLUTES?!?!? HOW MUCH GAS IT SUCKS?!?!? -- I started wondering if, in an ass-backwards way, her consumerism may actually be pushing the auto companies to develop a non-internal-combustion car in a way that gas-efficient cars don't. The quicker that we burn up all the gas, they'll have no choice but to build a car that doesn't use petroleum, right? Or is that too simplistic?

 

[Geoff]

So the point is...skiers need smaller, fuel efficient AWD vehicles with some carrying space.

I presume this is Subaru's niche at the moment. Thus Adam's new WRX. It gets about the same mileage (21-25) as his/our well-worn (~200K miles) 1995 Nissan Maxima. I'm driving the latter to work for a couple more months before we sell it.

A couple of things have me scratching my head here....

First, I don't think fuel-efficient and AWD belong in the same sentence. The typical system costs 2 or 3 MPG. I really don't think a WRX is an example of efficient, either. 300 very unrefined horsepower may be fun to drive and appeal to the ricer-boy racer set (I personally don't care for the WRX ride or fit & finish) but you can get plenty of performance out of a car that gets a good 10 mpg better fuel economy.

Second, I think AWD is completely unnecessary in a ski car for 95% of skiers in North America. FWD and good snow tires are completely adequate for the paved, plowed, snow-covered roads encountered driving to most ski resorts. You might make an exception in California where those stupid chain restrictions make you crawl under to install chains because the typical Californian owns nothing but stock tires. There are also applications where you need the ground clearance. For me, I have a couple of weekends most winters during mud month where 4WD, a skid plate, and 10" of ground clearance are useful just to get in and out of my driveway. I have yet to hit a time where snow stopped a VW GTI with Blizzak WS-60's but I live somewhere with good plowing.

I think most skiers would be best served by a class of car that has virtually disappeared... the compact station wagon. Subaru makes a living from them but Subarus don't get great gas mileage. They've virtually disappeared from most other product lines. What you'd really like to do is start with a platform comparable to an Impreza wagon. The thing is bloated and weighs 3000 pounds. Knock out a good 750 pounds of weight. In winter driving, the air is much more dense so drag really matters. Make it more aerodynamic by lowering the roof line. Dump the AWD system since it's really unnecessary if you have snow tires. Stretch the wheelbase some to have a usable back seat without widening the car. You'd jump from 27 MPG to up north of 35 MPG. I also think most small cars should have 4 cylinder turbos. For normal driving, you get great fuel economy because all the moving parts weigh less. When you need the horsepower, you kick in the boost with the corresponding decrease in fuel economy. The feature I'd really like is a winter/summer suspension height adjustment. When the snow tires go on, the car goes up 4". What I have now is a compromise where my GTI is 2" too high in the summer and 2" too low in the winter.

 

[jasoncapecod]

You ever play musical chairs? You don't want to be holding a futures contract when the music stops.

My wife has been a F/X trader for 20yrs. She's very musical :wink:

 

[Harvey]

$50 on Double Zero please.

 

[rfarren]

My gut instinct tells me that expensive gas will not make a difference for those who are within driving distance of resorts. However, the rising cost of gas means that airplane travel will become more expensive. The end result will be that remote resorts such as Sun Valley, Big Sky, Big Mountain, Lake Louis, will hurt a bit more, whereas results closer to major metropolitan areas will do better.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The WRX is a 4-cylinder turbo, 225hp. The 300hp version is the STI, also more expensive. I have admitted that both Adam and I are fast drivers, as are most skiers who drive through 300 miles of desert to Mammoth several times a year.

I'll also admit that I expected the WRX to get better mileage than the Maxima, which is a 3-liter V-6. But maybe that was just because the WRX is brand new. The 1995 Nissan V-6 was the predecessor to the engines that are in over half the Nissan and Infiniti models sold here now. I have to be impressed with a motor with that level of performance and 23MPG still going strong at 200,000 miles.

I have not been a fan of turbo engines in general due to my sorry experience with the original 1978 SAAB Turbo. That was an amazing ski car in its day, very spacious, good FWD in the snow if I could get past chain control, very good performance and mileage by the sorry standards of the 1970's, and also one of the first cars with the 3-way catalysts that reduced emissions without impairing driveability.

Unfortunately the extra power the turbo added to the SAAB 99 series resulted in chronic engine valve and transmission problems, which most of the SoCal dealers were incompetent to fix. After spending as much on repairs as I had for purchase, I reluctantly gave up it in 1983 with 80,000 miles.

We also had a 1985 Subaru Legacy wagon. This had a 1.8 liter turbo. The base engine was so anemic that the turbo would be on continuously on a 70MPH cruise to Mammoth. The chronic heat probably resulted in the blown head gasket that caused me to part with that car at 80,000 also.

Adam knows these stories, so he was careful test driving the WRX to see that the turbo was not on at freeway cruising speed. We can tell the technology has improved a lot; Adam says no turbo lag and that it's even quicker than the Maxima.

The hatchback/small wagon configuration seems sensible and popular for people in their 20's who need to move stuff around but don't want something too expensive or thirsty. In that class the WRX is the one with AWD and some extra performance, thus logical for Adam.

But based on my experience I'd rather have a top 6-cylinder from Nissan or BMW than a 4-cylinder turbo. Similar mileage, more performance and very likely still better longevity.

 

[Harvey]

I agree. It's been a long time since I drove a turbo, so maybe they've improved a lot. But to me, a turbo is an extra complication and expense, that is only useful when you press hard on the accelerator.

I remember watching the boost gauge and coming to the conclusion that the turbo would be useful when passing tractor trailers on long steep hills. :roll:

 

[Tony Crocker]

25 years ago the Friday night drive to Mammoth was over half 2-lane road crammed with ski club buses, and we used the accelerator a lot getting around them. Now 80% of the buses are gone and 3/4 of the drive is 4-lane, so mostly cruise control now.

I had the WRX for its first week+ because we didn't want Adam to do that cruise control drive to Mammoth when it was brand new. Its turbo is very transparent, hard to tell it's there and it doesn't even have a turbo gauge. Time will tell on reliability, but according to Road & Track owner survey the first gen WRX (in production for 6 years) had no particular drivetrain problems.

Semi-hijack: On the West Coast we have chain control and don't actually live in the snow, so everyone uses all-season tires. The upper New Englanders mostly drive on snow tires 4-5 months a year. Do the people in the Rocky Mountain states buy snow tires? Even if they live in Denver or SLC?

 

[Admin]

Semi-hijack: On the West Coast we have chain control and don't actually live in the snow, so everyone uses all-season tires. The upper New Englanders mostly drive on snow tires 4-5 months a year. Do the people in the Rocky Mountain states buy snow tires? Even if they live in Denver or SLC?

Yep. All-seasons suck.

The Saab 9-3 we bought last year was positively miserable with the stock all-seasons, even with FWD. Snow tires are going on next year. A half dozen times I couldn't even get it into my neighborhood to get it home.

(FYI I'm sitting here trying to get motivated to actually go skiing. 85 for a high at the house today and 90 tomorrow.)

 

[Patrick]

Yep. All-seasons suck.

Tell that to the car rental agencies in Prince Rupert and Terrace BC. :roll: I know it's generally the same everywhere, but I had a nice discussion with "what" the agency should do.

Not that I can't drive with them on snow, but ...

Not fun driving in a snowstorm with all season tires with over 100km between villages and gas stations.

My winter tires are generally on from early November to late April.

 

[Geoff]

I agree. It's been a long time since I drove a turbo, so maybe they've improved a lot. But to me, a turbo is an extra complication and expense, that is only useful when you press hard on the accelerator.

I remember watching the boost gauge and coming to the conclusion that the turbo would be useful when passing tractor trailers on long steep hills. :roll:

It's a different world. The turbo systems on the market since Y2K are far better than the early systems. Basically, all turbos either come from Garrett (owned by Honeywell) or BorgWarner. They're in every diesel engine on the road. In Europe, the a large fraction of gasoline engines now have turbos, too. You can't go by 1970's technology. Back then, it was a miracle for a US-built car to go 100K miles, too.

...and the whole point of a turbo system is that it doesn't kick in with normal driving. That's how you get good fuel economy.

 

[q]

rfarren mentioned the price of flights earlier in the thread.

Looking at exactly the same route as I took last winter on exactly the same days/weeks the price has barely risen at all.

It makes me wonder what the real story is. BP/Shell announce massive rise in profits as does BA.

 

[Harvey]

Since our CRV is basically only used to drive to the mountains, I went to two sets of rims and some Dunlop dedicated winter "sport" tires for 5 months. The all seasons wouldn't make it up the driveway consistently enough. Can't tell what snows cost me in MPG, as MPG seems to drop 5 mpg in winter anyway. (Roof box is some of it for sure.) Traction was most improved.

I consider the 2006 CRV with AWD pretty efficient on mpg... range is from 22 to 30 mpg.

 

[Geoff]

Since our CRV is basically only used to drive to the mountains, I went to two sets of rims and some Dunlop dedicated winter "sport" tires for 5 months. The all seasons wouldn't make it up the driveway consistently enough. Can't tell what snows cost me in MPG, as MPG seems to drop 5 mpg in winter anyway. (Roof box is some of it for sure.) Traction was most improved.

I consider the 2006 CRV with AWD pretty efficient on mpg... range is from 22 to 30 mpg.

Cold temperatures and low humidity trash your gas mileage. At 0F with minimal humidity, the air is about 10% denser than at 60F. If you fly an airplane, you have to pay attention to hot, humid days when the density of the air is low enough that the airplane won't make it off the runway. WInd resistance is much greater in the dead of winter. An SUV, even a little one like a CR-V isn't particularly aerodynamic and a roof box certainly doesn't help.

A Civic, which is the same platform, gives you another 9 or 10 MPG since it's five hundred pounds lighter, doesn't have to move those 4WD drivetrain components, and is a full foot lower and far more aerodynamic so it doesn't need as big an engine. If you stretched the wheelbase and put a station wagon body on it, you wouldn't add much weight and you'd have a pretty good ski car. 22 to 30 MPG in a CR-V is good. 31 to 40 MPG in a Civic as a stretched station wagon model would be a lot better.

 

[Harvey]

I thought it was reformulated gas in winter. Anyway thanks for the info, turbo stuff included. Another thing that beats on mileage is warm up. I know you aren't supposed to do it, but tell that to my car, the transmission (and my wife) when it's 10 below.

Our other car is a Civic and your right about the mpg..range is 32 - 42. 45 was the absolute best I ever did, really trying hard.

No question that if they made a Civic wagon, with AWD, we would own one. They offered one a long time ago, maybe 1990? Not sure.

It's time for some gd american innovation. What else do we have to sell?

 

[jasoncapecod]

Interesting articles in today's Sunday NY Times on diesel cars..

 

[Harvey]

Interesting articles in today's Sunday NY Times on diesel cars..

Fascinating. There were three or four articles loosely related on the subject of diesel. What I didn't understand before today was that a barrel of crude (42 gallons) will produce a certain ratio of gasoline and diesel - around 19 gallons of gas and 10 gallons of diesel. The ratio can be adjusted somewhat, within limits.

So if everyone switched to diesel, not only would the price of diesel rise for demand reasons, but the price of gas would drop even more dramatically because of oversupply. We are already seeing that now as demand for gas has been flat and demand for diesel is shooting up, especially in Europe and China.

Looks like, for now the solution should include both types of cars.

Maybe the Subie Turbo Diesel Wagon - EPA 33/47 - will be the next "it" car for skiers. Price was quoted as $28,000. Seems like a reasonable price. What does a regular outback cost? Guessing like $23 or 24K?

 

[Geoff]

So if everyone switched to diesel, not only would the price of diesel rise for demand reasons, but the price of gas would drop even more dramatically because of oversupply.

Don't forget that heating oil and diesel are the same thing. The Northeast really has to change over to alternate energy sources for heating.